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etc now it's Charles Emmons who's a

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sociologist you know I think he's going

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to help us with a different kind of

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hi everybody can you hear me okay okay

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is alternate healing science is it

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paranormal is it spiritual thank you

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very much Gettysburg College for the

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research money I got interested in this

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starting in 2013 when Jack hunter the

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editor of peer anthropology led a group

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of us to the Esalen Institute for a

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conference on survival s alone is a

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great place to study altered states of

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consciousness you can get into one

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yourself in the the hot tub the communal

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hot tubs

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and you can also study alternative

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medicine a couple of really good books

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on the culture of esslyn are Jeff

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cripples Esalen America and the religion

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of no religion and David kaisers how the

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hippies saved physics so here we are at

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the Center for theory and research

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talking about evidence for survival and

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at the end Deb Frost one of the major

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donors said how do we get this stuff

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about consciousness into the culture

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what are some practical implications

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sound familiar

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Concilium aha

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I had a sabbatical title before I had a

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research design paranormal practice

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using the unusual okay then what would

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that be I remembered Dean Radin telling

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me in an interview that he was moving

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toward publishing more in medical

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journals and I thought about Sarah

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McKeon's book everyday spirituality in

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which she talks about how individuals

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take this and that from here and there

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to fill their own needs in their own

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personal lives Sarah

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studied three spiritualist churches in

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stoke-on-trent in the West Midlands in

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England and I thought I could do that

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I've studied spiritualist churches and

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this would be a good way to start a

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snowball sample of spiritual healers I

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ended up interviewing fifty-three people

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and doing lots of participant

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reservation in the UK in England and

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Wales and in the United States in

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different places in Pennsylvania New

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York and Ohio

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I have previous research that relates to

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this guided by spirit is about spirit

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mediums and science and spirit is about

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consciousness both of those with my wife

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Penelope and then Chinese ghost this is

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the 2017 revised edition they all have

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something to do with spiritual healing

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and for this project I have a chapter

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paranormal medicine in darrell Caterine

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edited volume the paranormal and popular

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culture for rutledge i do a sociology of

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knowledge so I want to find out what's

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going on with the mainstream and how

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they manage the medically mysterious but

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especially I emphasize what's happening

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with practitioners and users so my main

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research question is what is considered

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scientific paranormal or spiritual about

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alternative medicine and both for the

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you know the mainstream integrative and

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the the more spiritual practitioners and

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users this is not my question

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does it work and how does it work but if

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you're curious about that and who isn't

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then you could read sociologist Mary

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rookies history of attempts to test

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alternative medicines and the

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methodological problems in doing that

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you could see how transcendental

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meditation came out of a spiritual

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tradition but then got studied

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scientifically in the lab at Harvard

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starting in 1968 with dr. Herbert Benson

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now later on he did talk about spiritual

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aspects of meditation but that's not

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what he was doing to begin with

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you could also read sociologist Bill

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Bengston and how he deals with healing

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hands on healing of mice with cancer in

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the laboratory you could read Beverly

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Rubik if you're a healer she'll put you

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in a small dark space and measure the

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photons coming out of your

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energy fingers you could read amongst

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butters so for example with Julia Moss

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bridge he wrote transcendent mind and

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part of that talks about the

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meta-analyses that support the efficacy

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of long distance healing distance

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healing you could read sociologist Jim

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McLennan wondrous healing in which he

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explains shamanic healing in terms of

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placebo and hypnotizability what I do is

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look at the importance of the the

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sociological anthropological context of

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this placebo is partly a social

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phenomenon they'll have an impact on

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whatever objectively might be happening

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and also legitimacy and beliefs of

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practitioners are going to have an

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impact on what is actually used the

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phrase alternative medicine is already

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culturally relative so that I

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interviewed a woman from Peru who said

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this is an alternative this is just our

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medicine this is our indigenous medicine

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we don't consider it alternative

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acupuncture you know Chinese context is

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not alternative medicine it's part of

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traditional Chinese scholarly scientific

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medicine and even between the United

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States and the UK midwifery is rather

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alternative in the United States but not

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in England especially not in Wales we

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can look at this at the macro level and

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the micro level at the macro we look at

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the institution of medicine and medical

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schools and medical journals on the

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micro level we would be looking at what

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individual practitioners what individual

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excuse me what individual practitioners

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and users do and that's my emphasis and

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the institution of medicine we moved

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from alternative to complementary to

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integrative which indicates in some way

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a kind of progression toward a greater

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incorporation into the mainstream and we

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would look at what's happening with the

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National in

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suits of health and when we noticed that

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both Harvard and Yale have Integrative

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Medicine in the medical schools we know

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something's happening but it's far from

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equal so there's still negative stuff in

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medical journals about alternative

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medicine and a lot of the spiritual

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things are just reframed as placebo and

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if you are going to get alternative

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procedures a lot of times they're done

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by volunteers so for example in one

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Hospital I observed before going into

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surgery yes you could get essential oils

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but they would be administrated

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administered by a volunteer and not by

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somebody of higher professional status

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so again I want to know what's happening

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with people who see it as scientific how

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is that being legitimated but also want

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to see the spiritual that is more

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important to a lot of alternative

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practitioners and users you gonna say I

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told you so but I found that not many

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people could respond to framing things

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in terms of the paranormal for one thing

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they would associate the paranormal with

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goofy pop culture images of ghosts and

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see how it was relevant to what I was

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asking or they would say the paranormal

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is tomorrow's science or they would say

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the paranormal is already today's

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science we can explain these things

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scientifically they thought in terms of

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quantum physics or subtle energies

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here's somebody who used all three

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perspectives science paranormal and

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spiritual

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this is Edie Edwards who says he does

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bio intrinsic resonant energy work and

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the scientific part according to him is

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that he manipulates electrical energies

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but he says there's a paranormal part

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because when he's tested in

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instruments at a distance while he's

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inside a Faraday box but he also

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explains things spiritual he said that

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he gets his powers from the source sort

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of generic spiritual source I can give

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you example

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of people who see what they're doing in

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some let's say it's all science I'll

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give you examples from Qigong from bill

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Bengston and homeopathic doctors so if

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you're training to be a chi gong

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practitioner you will be told that this

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is all science and you're not told that

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it's spiritual I'm there's probably

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exceptions to that but the people I

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interviewed said that Bill Bengston said

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there's nothing spiritual about his

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healing and he said it doesn't matter if

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the students who come into his lab to to

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try the hands-on healing believe in it

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or not see that's really fascinating to

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me people who look at supposedly

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spiritual healing and say it's not

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spiritual I interviewed a norwegian

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homeopathic doctor who used to take care

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of the english soccer legend Gordon

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banks and this Norwegian homeopathy said

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what I do is entirely scientific but a

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number of my Norwegian colleagues think

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there's a spiritual component but he saw

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it all as science so a lot of what's

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going on here is the spiritualization we

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could call it

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it's like Max Weber --zz disenchantment

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or secularization of the modern world

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the decline of mysticism so that you see

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secular yoga that doesn't have very much

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it's spiritual about it maybe a little

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namaste here and there and that's about

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it or secular secular meditation you

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know like kind of like Herbert Benson he

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wasn't seeing it as spiritual when he

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started out now here we come to what

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Larry Dossey would call conciliation

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corrupt us because we've learned so much

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about the amazing things that happened

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with placebo in the last five or ten

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years that it's pretty ignorant in

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mainstream medicine to deny the body

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mind spirit just give me the body-mind

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connection but when it comes to body

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mind spirit what do you do with spirit

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well let's not fight about this let's

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just call it all placebo and will avoid

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the concilium some people I interviewed

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took a totally rational frame even when

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they had marvelous experience

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so this one woman says she's a skeptic

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and she and her father have what looked

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like mystical experiences in nature or

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haunting experiences and historic sites

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and she says the two of them talked

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about it as feeling the energy you can

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feel the energy in this place she and

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her husband have an Egyptian fertility

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cloth that they put above the bed in the

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guest room and they say there are three

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women who have gotten pregnant sleeping

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in that bed whose doctors told them they

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couldn't possibly get pregnant so the

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woman and her husband laugh about this

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they don't believe in it but they

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recommend it there are practitioners who

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say well you know maybe my clients

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experience something spiritual sort of

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an add-on effect some sort of placebo

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effect I do massage and that's

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scientific but I don't know what's going

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on you know maybe spiritual intuitive

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things happen among my clients one

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skeptic says you know yoga and

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meditation those are medical but

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actually our instructor asks us to

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imagine that we're filling up with

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spirit maybe there's something else

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going on I found that it's really

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important what the audience is when

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these practitioners are talking so for

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example a high percentage of

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chiropractors in the United States are

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conservative Christians and one that I

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interviewed said when I'm talking in my

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congregation I tell them that I'm

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working with the Holy Spirit but I don't

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say that to MDS or other chiropractors

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or even my clients unless they want to

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talk about something spiritual some

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people say they're spiritual but they

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don't really know the process you don't

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know exactly what's happened they just

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kind of feel it there's some sort of

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feedback and there's a ritual or method

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that takes care of it but they don't

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really know so in this crystal shop in

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stoke here's my friend Tony from Hong

292
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Kong people call him up and ask him what

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do I use for what kind of stones were

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used for a certain ailment you know and

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he'll just something will pop into his

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head and he says he's cured

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you look it up later he doesn't know

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much about the stones I asked him what

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would be something that I could give my

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friend back in Gettysburg he walked in

301
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the back room pulled out a drawer gave

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me a nondescript looking flat brownstone

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I said okay I took it to my friends she

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says oh my god that's my favorite stone

305
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I've lost mine I thought I'd never see

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another one again some people say it's

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all spiritual I asked one Reiki

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practitioner do you think that someday

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we'll be able to explain scientifically

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what all this is that happens with your

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energy healing she says gosh I hope not

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that would spoil it that's kind of the

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mysterion view it's a mystery let's keep

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it that way

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one-one spiritualist I interviewed said

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let's leave the scientists out of this

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which is not a typical spiritualist

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response because spiritualism is

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supposed to be a combination of science

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philosophy and religion there sometimes

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there's like a generic connection that

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healers say they have especially

323
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spiritualist healers that I know and

324
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there's some kind of intuition going on

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they don't know what it is they're

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guided somehow and they but they also

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improvise so that some people they say

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they just good know where to put their

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hands I'm a spiritualist healer myself

330
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and I can I know what that means you

331
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know I'll find myself lingering on a

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shoulder I find out later that was where

333
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the problem was these are two Reiki

334
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practitioners who work on horses and

335
00:15:10,030 --> 00:15:08,030
people like me and the three of us

336
00:15:11,710 --> 00:15:10,040
compared notes about what we thought was

337
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going on while they were healing me and

338
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we all had different kinds of feelings

339
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intuitive notions of what was happening

340
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if you want to become a healer you'll

341
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take a rate Reiki class you go in class

342
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spiritual sailing class and you have a

343
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theory and a message but there's

344
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tremendous variation in what people

345
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actually do and how they describe what

346
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they think is going on in England

347
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spiritualist churches have very rigid

348
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notebooks of pictures of where you're

349
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supposed to put your hands and where

350
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you're not supposed to put your hands

351
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and but the healers told me we don't go

352
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by that

353
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spirit mediums have rules about how

354
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they're supposed to connect and Penelope

355
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and I on the left they'll be on the left

356
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our do phenomenological subjective

357
00:16:00,280 --> 00:15:58,970
studies of how mediums do what you do in

358
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the book guided by spirit

359
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whereas Julie by shal does mostly

360
00:16:08,770 --> 00:16:06,290
objective laboratory studies with MRIs

361
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and so on but Julie is in you know it's

362
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a wind bridge Research Center but she's

363
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also incorporating some subjective

364
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measures which i think is really good

365
00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:17,000
the those comparisons that's the wave of

366
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the future for studying mediumship both

367
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mediums and healers say that they have

368
00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:27,380
often spirit guides and there are rules

369
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against connecting the mediumship with

370
00:16:32,470 --> 00:16:32,000
the healing but actually they go

371
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together

372
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I mean I've experienced that myself and

373
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there are rules in Lily Dale where the

374
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spiritualist community about you know

375
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don't mix these things don't pretend

376
00:16:44,470 --> 00:16:42,230
you're a doctor one of the mediums says

377
00:16:47,230 --> 00:16:44,480
she visualizes the Tolbert Pillsbury

378
00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:47,240
Doughboy and somebody poking the

379
00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:48,650
Doughboy where there's a physical

380
00:16:52,660 --> 00:16:50,810
problem and she'll tell the sitter in a

381
00:16:54,630 --> 00:16:52,670
private reading that she should check it

382
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out

383
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there are also prayer circles all kinds

384
00:17:01,780 --> 00:16:59,750
of other things you could study in a big

385
00:17:03,790 --> 00:17:01,790
study of spiritualism you could see

386
00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:03,800
their social support with SIBO effects

387
00:17:07,930 --> 00:17:05,930
we could study healing at a distance

388
00:17:09,940 --> 00:17:07,940
there's all kinds of things going on

389
00:17:12,340 --> 00:17:09,950
there that really connect mediumship and

390
00:17:14,530 --> 00:17:12,350
healing so in conclusion there's a

391
00:17:17,290 --> 00:17:14,540
tendency to rationalize a lot of healing

392
00:17:19,390 --> 00:17:17,300
in some kind of a theory and there's a

393
00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:19,400
move toward the scientific framing of

394
00:17:23,830 --> 00:17:21,410
things but there's a great variety of

395
00:17:26,980 --> 00:17:23,840
practices so that the general theories

396
00:17:29,500 --> 00:17:26,990
about how these things work whether it's

397
00:17:32,140 --> 00:17:29,510
scientific or spiritual theory really

398
00:17:36,210 --> 00:17:32,150
don't capture the everyday spirituality

399
00:17:40,410 --> 00:17:36,220
of all these healing behaviors thank you

400
00:17:50,950 --> 00:17:43,480
Thank You Charles and we have time for

401
00:17:53,650 --> 00:17:50,960
some question maybe I missed it but

402
00:17:55,630 --> 00:17:53,660
could you define spirit and could you

403
00:17:57,550 --> 00:17:55,640
define the difference between spiritual

404
00:18:00,400 --> 00:17:57,560
healing and electromagnetic healing with

405
00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:00,410
a device no I can't but that's up to my

406
00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:02,450
the people that I interviewed see I want

407
00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:04,610
to know how they look at it now I could

408
00:18:09,100 --> 00:18:07,370
give you a variety of statements of what

409
00:18:11,110 --> 00:18:09,110
people say about what spirit is and

410
00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:11,120
their theories about how it works but

411
00:18:16,030 --> 00:18:13,850
it's very strim entity but I'm not

412
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:16,040
studying how it works see and I'm not

413
00:18:20,350 --> 00:18:17,930
defining it I'm letting the people I

414
00:18:22,810 --> 00:18:20,360
interviewed to find it I mean I can tell

415
00:18:25,060 --> 00:18:22,820
you what I think but that's not relevant

416
00:18:27,100 --> 00:18:25,070
to what I'm talking about but what do I

417
00:18:29,410 --> 00:18:27,110
think spirit is I don't know I think

418
00:18:30,970 --> 00:18:29,420
it's consciousness and that it's a

419
00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:30,980
mystery that we're there we're working

420
00:18:36,490 --> 00:18:34,210
on I mean that's as much as I know and

421
00:18:38,830 --> 00:18:36,500
and I don't know about

422
00:18:40,780 --> 00:18:38,840
I mean I'm curious about all the energy

423
00:18:44,410 --> 00:18:40,790
explanations information explanations

424
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:44,420
but that's not my specialty either but I

425
00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:46,610
appreciate the appreciate the question

426
00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:49,130
when you've interviewed healers who

427
00:18:53,380 --> 00:18:50,810
refer to science are they doing that

428
00:18:55,540 --> 00:18:53,390
primarily for pragmatic reasons do you

429
00:18:57,550 --> 00:18:55,550
find or for reasons to try to understand

430
00:18:58,840 --> 00:18:57,560
what's happening I just wonder if you

431
00:19:01,170 --> 00:18:58,850
could say a little bit more about when

432
00:19:04,690 --> 00:19:01,180
healers are referring to science

433
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:04,700
specifically data my impression is that

434
00:19:10,690 --> 00:19:08,410
most of them don't care very much about

435
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:10,700
the scientific explanation they may be

436
00:19:15,190 --> 00:19:12,890
curious and they know what they've been

437
00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:15,200
told about how to do things and they

438
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:18,050
give sort of a kind of a fun generic

439
00:19:22,120 --> 00:19:20,570
discussion of that they'll talk about it

440
00:19:24,430 --> 00:19:22,130
philosophically but I don't think they

441
00:19:26,590 --> 00:19:24,440
look to it very specifically for how to

442
00:19:28,120 --> 00:19:26,600
do things and some of them really worry

443
00:19:30,250 --> 00:19:28,130
that they're not doing it according to

444
00:19:32,020 --> 00:19:30,260
the rules and they asked their teachers

445
00:19:34,330 --> 00:19:32,030
and they say you're great don't worry

446
00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:34,340
about it there's a tremendous amount of

447
00:19:43,390 --> 00:19:37,610
intuition rather than rational ways of

448
00:19:45,180 --> 00:19:43,400
doing things yeah very interesting you

449
00:19:49,469 --> 00:19:45,190
know the older I get

450
00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:49,479
the more I think that humans attribute

451
00:19:56,369 --> 00:19:52,330
all sorts of reasons to the things but

452
00:19:59,310 --> 00:19:56,379
nature just is and that's in physics and

453
00:20:02,669 --> 00:19:59,320
psychic phenomena by healing and so on

454
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:02,679
it's why are why are we as human beings

455
00:20:07,109 --> 00:20:04,690
always trying to attribute causes to

456
00:20:08,789 --> 00:20:07,119
things when we really don't there could

457
00:20:10,859 --> 00:20:08,799
be multiple causes everything happen it

458
00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:10,869
causes everything see I'm a heel or a

459
00:20:15,509 --> 00:20:13,570
spiritual healer and if if I have to

460
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:15,519
decide between science and intuition

461
00:20:21,749 --> 00:20:19,690
I'll take science but this is new for me

462
00:20:24,060 --> 00:20:21,759
being a spirit medium and a healer and

463
00:20:25,649 --> 00:20:24,070
I'm just sort of in awe of it and I'd

464
00:20:28,469 --> 00:20:25,659
like to have some answers you know what

465
00:20:30,450 --> 00:20:28,479
is spirit and all that but I know what

466
00:20:32,639 --> 00:20:30,460
it feels like now and the experiential

467
00:20:33,539 --> 00:20:32,649
part is really important to understand

468
00:20:38,479 --> 00:20:33,549
how this works

469
00:20:41,279 --> 00:20:38,489
I mean to feel how it works yeah it's

470
00:20:44,369 --> 00:20:41,289
I'm not Anna mysterion though I want to

471
00:20:46,619 --> 00:20:44,379
know yeah thank you thank you for your

472
00:20:50,820 --> 00:20:46,629
interesting talk my question has to do

473
00:20:53,339 --> 00:20:50,830
with the search for mechanistic

474
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:53,349
explanations for what's going on and how

475
00:20:57,779 --> 00:20:55,330
in a clinical situation sometimes we

476
00:20:59,909 --> 00:20:57,789
benefit from having more degrees of

477
00:21:03,509 --> 00:20:59,919
freedom for change and so the error term

478
00:21:06,450 --> 00:21:03,519
actually may be where our friend is that

479
00:21:07,710 --> 00:21:06,460
I've found over time I'm a clinical

480
00:21:10,619 --> 00:21:07,720
psychologist and I use a lot of

481
00:21:12,989 --> 00:21:10,629
biofeedback and low level laser and just

482
00:21:15,570 --> 00:21:12,999
these emergent technologies in my work I

483
00:21:17,339 --> 00:21:15,580
don't introduce them all at once but

484
00:21:19,019 --> 00:21:17,349
very often I'll have more than one thing

485
00:21:20,789 --> 00:21:19,029
going on with people and it seems like

486
00:21:23,879 --> 00:21:20,799
the outcomes are greater that somehow

487
00:21:25,739 --> 00:21:23,889
there's a synergy and the willingness to

488
00:21:27,629 --> 00:21:25,749
live with the mystery for the mechanism

489
00:21:29,190 --> 00:21:27,639
that's underlying the change actually

490
00:21:30,570 --> 00:21:29,200
seems to work to our benefit and I'm

491
00:21:31,859 --> 00:21:30,580
wonder if you'd comment on yeah you have

492
00:21:33,450 --> 00:21:31,869
to have the intention I mean that's the

493
00:21:36,479 --> 00:21:33,460
way I look at it I have the intention

494
00:21:41,219 --> 00:21:36,489
and I kind of let go but a couple things

495
00:21:43,349 --> 00:21:41,229
I think bill Bengston is right that has

496
00:21:44,789 --> 00:21:43,359
a lot to do the person being healed and

497
00:21:46,109 --> 00:21:44,799
I think very few people when they come

498
00:21:47,789 --> 00:21:46,119
in the healing temple and lowly Dale

499
00:21:50,009 --> 00:21:47,799
thinks that they have anything to do

500
00:21:52,049 --> 00:21:50,019
with it but I and also when people get

501
00:21:54,450 --> 00:21:52,059
readings has a lot to do with the sitter

502
00:21:57,350 --> 00:21:54,460
I've noticed that that some people I

503
00:22:01,430 --> 00:21:57,360
just can't read and

504
00:22:02,990 --> 00:22:01,440
so it's it I don't know I kind of lost

505
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:03,000
my train on the other part of your

506
00:22:13,030 --> 00:22:07,890
question but that was good thank you